Interview by Frazer and Loren Frazer: Could you tell us who you are, a bit about the history of the social movement here in Zaachila and your role in the social movement? Manuel: I am an elementary school PE teacher from Zaachila. I am part of the people’s popular movement that began on July 7th, 2006 and continues to persevere here in Zaachila because of vast neighborhood support. The popular uprising in Zaachila began because of anger fermenting in the population toward the previous government. The former mayor of Zaachila was selling water permits to construct subdivisions all around the area, without asking permission of Zaachileños. They were also selling 25,000 liter tanks to other communities around the area for 3,000-4,000 pesos. This was really frustrating for the population because as they were selling this water during the dry season. So we had no water here while this company was selling all this water. NOTE: According to the national newspaper La Jornada one of the main complaints against the housing development company GEO lies in the Company’s manager Alejandro Noé Cruz Lopez who “has been accused of sexually molesting young municipal police officers, physically abusing farmers, and yielding death threats against the Popular Leader Manuel Gonzales Tomás and the wife of the popularly elected mayor. The young police officers of Zaachila brought their case against Cruz Lopes directly to the state court. But Governor Ulises Ruiz and ex-municipal president Jose Coronel Martinez gave him impunity.” According to the newspaper, “GEO acquired 12 hectares of land from Coca-Cola in order to dig 5 deep wells. Coca-Cola wanted to build a plant in Zaachila and do the same thing 10 years ago, but the population opposed the proposition. However, GEO went ahead and did the same thing and is now extracting water. They extract water from the area with huge trucks in the middle of the night and take the water to other developments around the capital and the central valley sell it privately… The people of Zaachila hate the housing development as much as the people buying the properties. The people took over the development and detained the company’s machines. This was because GEO did not finish its work and contaminated the local water with black water (sewage)…The people of Zaachila are in low-lands, and because Geo did not install any water treatment facilities, the sewage water from the development contaminates all of the water used for crops of the lower valley. The national commission of water refused to show locals the governmental paperwork that gave GEO the rights to extract water and exploit the land…The buyers also accuse Geo of cheating them out of their money…The real discontent with Geo lies within the people of Zaachila. Locals accuse GEO of stealing municipal water, contaminating the water the local farmers use for their crops, and they are planning to build a luxury housing zone which the people of Zaachila do not want.” (ENVIADO, HERMANN BELLINGHAUSEN. Cansados de abusos, en Zaachila instauran un gobierno popular. La Jornada. Aug 1, 2006.) Frazer: Are the people who live in these subdivisions rich? Manuel: No, Casa Geo, the company responsible for all of this, sells houses to the people of the middle class. They are people who have jobs in the government: teachers, health care workers or people who work in agriculture. They are people who make monthly payments for these houses out of their salaries, and it takes about 20 years to pay them off. They are houses that cost about 300,000 pesos ($30,000). They usually have two bedrooms, a bathroom, and a small living room/dining room and a small patio. So this is an excellent business for large corporations. But in the end, these people come to buy these homes, and the people who buy them are not the ones at fault here because they just need to satisfy the necessity of having a home somewhere, and with their money, and with great effort. But at the end of the day those who engage in this business and those who hand out these permits, the previous authorities, are the ones at fault. So because of this issue the people got mad at the municipal president along with his cronies on the town council. Along with the town hall they impeached José Coronel in a massive public assembly. According to the law, people have the capacity to remove government officials from office. And after we did, there was a power vacuum. We organized neighborhood assemblies into popular neighborhood fronts, in order to confront incongruity. Zaachila is comprised of nine neighborhoods, and every barrio meets in its own assembly, and names its representative. We created popular neighborhood fronts comprised of 6 to 10 people depending on the internal agreement in that given neighborhood. The representatives of the barrios make up a political council which represents each neighborhood; and these councils analyze the current problems within the movement. During the moment of the power vacuum there was no public representative, and the community assembly of Zaachila named a popular representative for the town. The community assembly handed power over to Míguel Ángel Vásquez Hernández. As of July 8th 2006, he assumed responsibility as the popular municipal president of Zaachila. But popularly elected officials are not recognized under municipal law. However, legally there is the possibility of a referendum. But this is the problem; it’s a contradiction in the law, because at the end of the day these laws were made by the people and that is why they need to be validated through elections. But because here, these elections were not evaluated by the national elections institute, so we call this a popular movement with its own popular president. We also continue administrating, and I say we continue because I am talking about the compañeros that form a part of the popular town council, the taxes that we get from places like the market. For example, the market is right here to the side of the town hall. There are stands where they sell food, vegetables, and various other things, and these people pay a tax to use this space. Also on Thursdays, the day of peace and the day of the market, the city collects more money because all this space in front of the town hall in the plaza is filled with merchants which come from different villages close by. And these days the town makes a little more money. We use these funds to solve some of the problems that we have, such as the collection of garbage and taking that garbage to the dump, which is located to the east of this city. We were not receiving federal and state funding because we are a popular movement not recognized by the government. So we were using the money from the market and from the public bathrooms to finance the most basic public services, like drinking water, for example. This was happening for almost a year, until February, when there were some agreements with the government, rather, one of the three governmental branches: the legislative branch, AKA the House of Representatives. After this they additionally named a probationary municipal administrator, because that is what the law stipulates. This Administrator was to come for approximately one month. Additionally there were some verbal agreements with the legislative branch. Frazer: Between who? Verbal promises to… Manuel: It was a verbal promise that the administrator would only come for one month. Then there was the written commitment that the legislators would name a municipal administrator while an administrative council was being created. That is to say that this official administrator would name a town council comprised of people from the town. For this reason there was an agreement made verbally instead of written that this administrator would only come for one month. But they went and changed things and the ex-president, Jose Coronel, continued pursuing a controversial process through the constitutional court of justice, [in an effort] to make it so that this man (José Coronel) didn’t have to leave. But we were thinking at the time, that’s why we proclaimed that our council must be comprised of people from this town. So this is the process that we are in. However, in this municipal administration that is still here [6 months later], we have compañeros that were nominated by the popular assembly [in order to be] involved in this government…We have campeñeros that have been given the responsibilities of the director of services, which has to do with drinking water services, cleaning and trash collection. There is another compañero which is in charge of the markets, the granting of permits and things. We have a director of public security, who is in charge of about 25 elements of public security, such as making sure police are constantly on patrol 24 hours a day, making sure people are safe and keeping the public order. There is also a director of health and the environment. This director is a woman and she is in charge of public health, environmental protection and community development. So these are the services that we have and are lead by directors who have been put in place by the community assembly. These directors have auxiliary employees in their service who are coordinators of projects. And in this way this administration is working. Even though legally it is a municipal administration, in what it is doing [how it is organized] it is a popular administration. Because it is the majority of the people that are taking part in this administration and taking part in this people’s popular assembly and the social movements of Zaachila. NOTE: Among other complaints La Jornada reported that “In 2004 Coronel was imprisoned for illicit self enrichment through public funds, but was released Jose Murat and was able to run for office the following year.” As well as deceiving the public of his partisan allegiance. “Coronel (the ex-mayor) ran with the Convergencia party, but then immediately switched back to the PRI after he was elected and put hiself in the service of Ulises Ruiz.” (ENVIADO, HERMANN BELLINGHAUSEN. Cansados de abusos, en Zaachila instauran un gobierno popular. La Jornada. Aug 1, 2006.) Frazer: So how is it that now you all are able to get finances from the government now even though before this was not a legally recognized government? Why was it slowly recognized as being more legitimate? Manuel: When we say that on the July 7th we disposed the power of the ex-municipal president José Coronel, and popular power was taken back by the popularly elected president and the town councilors. In that moment we were not receiving any compensation from the state or federal government. Who was receiving the money was the ex-president José Coronel, even though he was already disposed of power, and shouldn’t have been receiving any financing, he was still receiving this money and he wasn’t doing anything for the town. Frazer: He was just pocketing it all? Manuel: Right, he was just taking it. So then on February 17th, there was a deal made with the house of deputies that we will accept an administrator for one month after which we will name the administrative council of the town. This happened on February 17th, and the resources from the government began flowing again, because at that point the system was legal again. …so the resources for social services and workers began flowing again and we have been able to distribute these resources in a more just manner. Before, nobody consulted the population as to what projects they would like to see happen. But here, with this administration, our compañero-directors and the council of directors for social services comprised of 10 people, we meet and come to agreements, like, "OK, lets called these people that are interested in doing something and then we all get on the same page and we prioritize the public works projects. As we work out what is more or less important and relate it to how much money exists." For example one of the principle launching points of our agenda that we are attacking is education. In education we want to do some really basic things like repairing bathrooms that are already in serious disrepair, creating a plaza, a sports field, and buying office materials, and basic furniture like tables and chairs, blackboards, and a few computers that the schools need. This is what the people need and this is what they solicit the government for. Secondly the assembly is also trying to support peasants with their land, by helping to build deep wells that they use for their sprinkler systems. They are also supporting a few distant neighborhoods. In Zaachila there are 9 neighborhoods, but there are also 3 agencies. There is the agency of San Lucas Plane Chico, the agency of San Pedro del Reforma, and the agency of Emiliano Zapata. NOTE: Las Noticias, one of the local newspapers of Oaxaca reported that on February 16, 2007 “the Oaxacan government finally approved the disappearance of power in Zaachila and recognized the town council to be the legal government. At the same time Ulises Ruiz named the ex-mayor of Zaachila, Coronel, to be the governor of the Valle Central.” Frazer: So the municipality of Zaachila is this entire valley not just the town… Manuel: Yes, and further over that way is where the colonias are, they are very marginalized and a few colonies [can not obtain basic] necessities. The community assembly has been supporting them with basic resources. But we had to intervene as a political commission because we do not receive money, that is, we do not get paid, because we do not belong to the municipal administration, but we contribute simply to the political process, and we help to make sure that the resources of the government really get to the population that needs them. That is where the situation stands in terms of how the community assembly works. Now, in terms of the structure of the neighborhoods, I already mentioned that there are 9 neighborhoods, and every neighborhood is represented by 5 to 10 people and they are the ones that come together for meeting in the assembly and there they discuss and determine the things that the municipal government has to do. And this is how we have authorized the functioning of the municipality. And this is how we have authorized the way in which we should participate in electoral politics. So we say Alright, we are here participating in a social movement but here is where we stand. We know that one of the few ways to access the power to be able to change things and change the status quo, is to become a part of this power and from there continue to create change. One of the ways to do that is through gaining the power of municipal president. Through this we have had a unique experience, in that we are participating in a municipal election as a popular movement through the Partido de la Revolución Democratica, known as the PRD. Yesterday there were two ballot boxes down here in the plaza in front of the municipal building and another one over there in the neighborhood of Guerrero. All of those aligned with the PRD went to vote at these ballot boxes. There they voted for one of three candidates. There are two companeros here in the city, one is named Enrique Antonio Mendoza, and the other is named Alvaro Choco Martez. Oh, and me, Manuel Gonzalez Tomás, and I am the representative of the popular movement and with satisfaction we can say that we are advancing with this struggle, this project, and we won the primary vote within the PRD, so we won the internal. Frazer: Yeah, and that is pretty unique, because from what I know, the other candidates were part of the PRD here for a lot of time, but you where part of a social movement, part of the APPO, Manuel: Yes. Frazer: So it seems to me that this is more about the fact that you can’t really be part of APPO, right? You can’t really be an APPO candidate and have the resources you need to win? Manuel: Yes, look, the movement at this moment is already more than a year old inside of the Community Assembly of Zaachila, which is a part of the Popular Assembly of the Peoples of Oaxaca. And this movement is a pacifist social movement, which completely differentiates itself from any sort of armed movement. We have the ideology of other groups, however we also want to participate within the boundaries of the law, within the political constitution of Mexico, the political constitution of the state of Oaxaca. So, before all of this, we are an assembly that participated [in the social movement], but in order to participate in constitutional elections we have to be a part of, or register as part of a recognized political party. Therefore, one of the parties that has won a lot of respect from people and that stays closer to the desires of the people and is more aligned with the things they do, is the PRD. So in the face of all this the assembly decided to register itself as a community assembly of the PRD. But within the PRD [in Zaachila] there are 3 candidates. Actually there were 4 initially registered but one of them decided not to participate and we decided to participate. But in this case we represent the popular movement and yesterday we ran and won the primary. And now we are waiting for the municipal elections on October 7th, to participate in the constitutional elections to select the next municipal president and, from tomorrow on, we will be practically starting our campaign. Obviously I am not alone, there are companeros that are also participating from many different neighborhoods in the population. I hope we will be celebrating our victory in January 2008. Yesterday we saw great sympathy for us and there was a lot of solidarity, and we hope that this continues. So this is where we are at this moment. Frazer: I have two questions about how a political party will influence a social movement. Do you think that your affiliation with the PRD will only be by name, or rather, what type of influence do you think a national political party will have over your politics? Manuel: OK, here, let’s differentiate what’s going on a bit. Here we are part of a social movement that does not affiliate itself with a political party. That is, the popular assembly of Zaachila, conformed with its barrios, with a collective directive which are called neighborhood fronts and political councils, and we do not have a party. But there is, inside of this assembly some people that belong to a political party. For example there are compañeros that consider themselves part of the PRD, who are PRD militants, they have been apart of the PRD for years. But there are also people that are not affiliated with any other party. So, we think that the autonomy has to continue in the sense of partisanship. We coincide with the PRD and we are going to fight with the PRD, and we are going to back everything that the PRD does, in the sense of the collective benefit, of justice and democracy, but… Frazer: So you think there will still be autonomy? Manuel: Yes for sure, because we belong to a movement without a party. The same PRD has been criticized because of a few inconsistencies, but regardless we decided that this is the best option at the moment, for us. Frazer: What do you think will happen if you lose? What is going to happen to Zaachila if the PRI wins? Manuel: Well, if that happen we are very convinced, firm in the idea that the structure that we have invented will continue to grow. Because directly after the take over of the municipal building we continued to work with all of the population. This is something that is not going to die here, at this point. This is something that will happen in the long run, and will continue in its own way, even if we are not in power. We have to participate in political life as a social movement here in Zaachila. Loren: What role does the radio play in this movement? Manuel: OK, talking about the radio, it is a project that has been pushed ahead by a small compact social organization, which came and proposed a way to give the power of the word to those that didn’t have it, or were denied the right to freely express their ideas. This front was formed independently and is called Wincobi. Wincobi is a Zapoteco word that means new people. Wincobi has been working in cultural development here in Zaachila. Wincobi united their proposal with the popular movement and we thought, OK, why don’t we do everything possible to use this as a tool, this community radio project, in order to project our ideas and the ideas of the movement. And so, this idea flowed around inside, and the people in the two organizations came to an agreement, and the campañeros who knew the most about how to do this, asked someone to lend them a transmitter, a monitor, and microphones. We had everything given to us out of solidarity, to help us, and they put it together and made it work during the days of the struggle. And they called it Zaachila Radio, which can be found at 94.1 FM, and this was able to broadcast practically only to the center of the population. But after approximately 3 months we received more assistance and we were able to get a bigger more powerful transmitter. And from there we were really able to use Radio Zaachila as a tool to manifest [our thoughts], to say to the population, ‘You have a voice, use it! Say what you have to say! What they have denied you saying!’ This is what we used the radio for. It was a great help, and continues to be a great help to mobilize ourselves, for example when we had to rally the people, apart from the bell we have here, which they ring in case of any emergency or if there were any danger or if there is a meeting, we also use the radio for this and from their we call out to everyone and they listen. Apart from this it also helps us to foment culture. We have (I say we because I have been a part of all this) a program for kids, with music and stories, and guessing games, we also have a program that teachers can use, we also have the participation of local groups like drug addicts anonymous, and alcoholics anonymous. We have programs of Son music, popular music, music for teenagers. The content changes quite a bit because we believe that this is how you have to start a radio…we believe that entering in this kind of dynamic, mixing it with deeper content as well, including classical music, there is also Trova, it’s varied. Sometimes we broadcast conferences, there are discussion about the water, about natural resource [management], also it is used for the announcements of different groups in the population, for example there are people that announce parties in the neighborhoods, someone can come of the radio and say ‘hey tonight there’s going to be a party in Barrio San Sabastian and we are going to set off fireworks, there’s going to be horse races, some sports tournaments.’ That is, anything that could have to do with a festival. Also the Patron Festivals that happen around here, people form committees, the festival councils, and all this servers to inform to people, to solicit help. In the end this is a great instrument that we are utilizing for the benefit of everyone. And this is the sense of the community radio project. Frazer: OK, I have one more question. How is it that Zaachila, when all the federal police came to Oaxaca de Juarez to put down the APPO and the popular movement and in other towns as well, but the federal army didn’t come here? Manuel: There are two things here, right? One is12 kilometers from Oaxaca, which in part influenced this. And also the fact that the people of Zaachila had unity, and we showed that unity to the outside world. When there was some kind of mobilization we used our methods to get everyone together, like the bell, the loud speaker, and this was a demonstration of unity. So, apart from this “break”, and in part because we searched for and used defense mechanism with the people that occupied public spaces, like deputies and senators. This was done and really it [helped] this situation. Even though there were efforts [to invade the town]. The population really banded together to make sure that this [the police invasion] wouldn’t happen. Frazer: So there were situations when the Federales [PFP] tried to invade? Manuel: For sure. Here we have many entrances into the town, when there was the red alert, when there was danger [of the PFP invading], we communicated with the compañeros in APPO and we united to block the entrances so that they couldn’t come in take the palace back from those who were guarding it. And in these moments they had to make barricades, [which were made] for defensive purposes and not to harm anyone. And this is how the situation was. Frazer: I read that there were 26 other communities that took over their municipal buildings in order to create a popular government during the struggle. Manuel: Well yes, there were approximately 25. But it was, lets say, those that completely overthrew their municipal governments were about 5. For example there was San Antonino Castello, which is approximately 25 kilometers from here. And also there was Jalapa de Marquez, which is 100 kilometers away, close to Tehuantepec. Also there was another population, Huahuapan de Leon, and others, and Zaachila, those who formed as Popular Governments. Frazer: Do those places still have their popular governments? Manuel: Well, actually, all of them. A few have delegated responsibilities and others have named their authorities again, and now they have administrators or municipal administration councils. Frazer: Thanks so much! Note: Since this interview was conducted, the PRD chose another candidate and Manuel Gonzalez Tomas is now running with Partido Alternativo